http://www.shutterpond.com

I've also noticed a lot of second rate photographers complaining about what other photographers are getting paid, but it's none of their business. Let the two parties, the buyer and seller find their price, butt out.

I have to also iterate that peer pressure in markets is a futile attempt to manipulate prices, it's silly. The profession of photography is better served by good competition and ambition.

And yes, telling new photographers what market rates are, is good education, and serves them well. But nothing beats good photography.

The ASMP ( http://asmp.org/ ) is a great organization, and hosts great meetings, but stay away from the bozos that say "Lowballing, for whatever reason, hurts the entire profession." Mingle with the photographers who say, "My day rate is five grand." You'll learn more from those people.

If I hired the student photographer, I would pay them the same rate as anyone else. However, I would be unlikely to hire a student photographer. The risk cost is higher than any fee a photographer could charge.

This is less of an issue in the newspaper world. If editors want the shot, they'll pay regardless of source. In this case, demand exceeds supply.

This situation is not true for most commercial photography, however. Technical skill is an essential baseline, seldom a differentiator. Reputation and relationships separate the wheat from the chaff.

Young photographers should focus (heh) on how to establish reputation and relationships.

That is the business of photography.

ps: good font. i think that guy is just trying to be..."THAT GUY"

With low-ballers like the second client a strategy I've used was to counter offer with an even larger discount than he was asking for..... but only on the second job.
This has avoided unprofitable clients, and established some long term ones.

The photographer I apprenticed with taught me the "flinch" method of pricing a job.
When quoting a job, if the client flinches at the price, tell him that it will also include XYZ.
If he doesn't flinch, tell him that of course, XYZ would be an additional charge.

In my opinion, the one working for the good of the industry is the sucker. The industry isn't going to pay her rent come the first of the month.

Cheers!
(weird - comment system is not recognizing my email as valid...)

Great to see an article opening the eyes of people new to the business, whilst also reminding those professionals who forget that once, a long time ago, they may have made a mistake which they would not (being on the other side of the fence) would call "Lowballing".

Great work!

The comments on risks are all relevant. Also relevant is the level of quality desired. An analogy would be going out to eat... one might be quite happy with McDonalds where another wants a 3 or 4 star experience. It would be unreasonable for McDonalds to charge a 3 star price. It is just as unreasonable for anyone to complain about McDonalds selling their wares for so little, when dining can obviously be worth so much more.

Ultimately, the price has to come down to whatever the client and the photographer can both feel good about. It's ok to be the McDonalds of photography if it pays the bills and satisfies your personal needs.

LarryD

Beginners will soon learn we're right.

All start-ups need to go through a phase where they must *prove* themselves capable of completing business tasks. The skill of the photographer isn't in question - the ability to deliver on time - is.

In areas where there is much competition for work - and photography is one of these areas - then providers must differentiate themselves in order to win jobs. If they go up against a competitor who has years of experience, they must offer something the other competitor does not, or they will not win the job. Beginners have a high barrier to entry in this respect, and all they really have to bargain with is price.

Photographers don't have to accept the work, of course. But the problem is there will always be someone who will - and that person will be one step ahead next week when they have a reference under their belt, and you do not.

Trust someone who has been there, done that. It seems unfair, but it's called "paying dues".

I work with photographers, they do usually get underpaid, but I also work with students and I have a difficult time because they all have it stuck in their head that because they have a bit of experience tinkering with a point and shoot, read a few things on the web and know how to use photoshop(like I or any other technically inclined person can do) that they can demand copyrights and high fee's while not even providing the camera.

And that once you know what you're worth, to accept that sometimes selling services for less is part of getting experience and credibility.

Telling student to stand ceremony on price will guarantee fair remuneration for so long. Creative professionals need experience and credibility to succeed in the long term.

The low price offered to the student photographer factors in the risk cost. This cost would be perceived by the client to be high as the student photographer has no track record in terms of delivery.

An established photographer with a track record presents less risk. They can also be sued if the project goes pear-shaped.

Student photographers would be well advised to take a job and treat it as valuable work experience. The most valuable pay-off at this point is a reference, which helps establish a track record, and lowers the risk cost for the next buyer.

Once you're established, then you can charge established rates.

I'd be interested to know what the second girl asked for?

This is a VERY educational essay for prospective photographers on appropriate methodology for pricing photography. As a working commercial and editorial photographer for 25 years I can tell you it's very good advice and avoid the "Joe's" whenever possible.

I've encountered many low ballers like "Joe" and they've always annoyed me.

Get a proper profession, and do photography as a passion on the side.

p.s., the font was not difficult to read at all.

As a media buyer, I have to say, the price of a product or service is determined by the buyer and seller, and not a third party like Mr. Weintraub. Despite Weintraub's best efforts to influence deals, peer pressure, it's a futile effort. Just leave buyers and sellers to set their own prices, and get out of their business.

I've encountered many people like Mr. Weintraub in the business, and they've always annoyed me.